Revamping Northampton’s Greyfriars bus station would cost £30m
RESTORING the Greyfriars bus station would cost £23 million more than building a new station on the site of the Fishmarket, the leader of Northampton Borough Council has revealed.
During the Chronicle & Echo’s live web-chat yesterday, Councillor David Mackintosh (Con, Rectory Farm) revealed officials from the borough council had looked into the cost of restoring Greyfriars following a public backlash against plans to build a new station on the site of the Fishmarket.
But he revealed that simply doing-up the 36-year-old building, as many people have requested, would cost the town £30 million, compared to a bill of £6.5 million for the new station.
He said: “The cost of refurbishing the current bus station would be around £30 million. I think that would be obscene in the current climate.”
The council has also said the current bus station is in such a dilapidated state after years of neglect that it needs £500,000 spending on it each year, just to keep it running.
Councillor Mackintosh also argued that failing to demolish Greyfriars would block the expansion of the Grosvenor Centre, meaning 2,000 new jobs would not be created in the town.
He said: “My job as a councillor is to stand up for the town and I believe job creation, inward investment and a prosperous local economy is what people want.
“The only way we can achieve that is by making some tough decisions and working hard to attract investment.
“The only guarantee we have, is that if we do nothing then no new shops will come to Northampton and we will have no extra jobs for local people.”
The expansion of the Grosvenor Centre will see new shops stretch out as far as the Mayorhold car park.
When asked why the news shops were needed, the council leader said research had shown that modern businesses want larger shop units than are currently available in Northampton town centre, explaining why many stand empty at the moment.
He also argued against claims that the Fishmarket was too small for a bus station, confirming it would be big enough to handle 12 million passengers a year.
He said: “The Fishmarket site is very well located for the town centre and the Grosvenor Centre. It also provides completely level access without stairs, escalators or lifts.”
He added: “The major bus companies currently operating from Greyfriars, Stagecoach, First Bus and National Express, have been involved with the design of the new bus interchange.
“They tell us these plans work. I think that may be hard for drivers to imagine, but on visiting the Fishmarket site, it’s much bigger than you would imagine.”
Despite the arguments put across by the council leader, many of the people who took part in the online debate were not won over.
Chron reader, Ray, who took part in the debate, said: “This is just another example of the custodians of our once fine town blundering ahead with their blinkered ideas without a thought for what the majority actually want.
“We’ve lost so may fine buildings over the years and now we stand to lose another, which in my opinion, is a magnificent edifice.”
The borough council’s planning committee will decide in April whether the bus station plans should go ahead.
Highlights from Friday’s webchat:
10:59
DanielOwens: Morning folks! Here we go, it’s YOUR chance to have YOUR say over the future of Greyfriars bus station. We have the leader of Northampton Borough Council, David Mackintosh, on hand to answer your questions and outline his plans for both the current site and the proposed replacement.
11:01
Jon Knaggs: Has the decision been made, has the Fishmarket’s fate been sealed?
11:02
David Mackintosh: No, the planning application for the Bus Interchange will be considered at a meeting of the Borough Council’s Planning Committee in April. Members of that Committee will have the opportunity to hear from the public and finally vote to approve, reject or defer the application. Everyone will have the opportunity to go along again and make their views known.
11:02
John Rundle: Although the bus station is ugly, dirty and totally uncared for by the local council since it was built, this is no reason to demolish a perfectly functional asset and replace with something that cannot cope with the amount of bus movements that are currently carried out.
11:03
Richard McNulty: The proposed bus station at the Fishmarket will not be big enough. Why not build it on the car park near to the Law Courts which is much bigger and could access the new Grosvenor just across the road?
11:04
David Mackintosh: The new Bus Interchange will be able to cope with the existing 12 million bus passengers per year. We are fully aware of passenger numbers at the existing bus station, and the new interchange will be able to deal with those
11:04
Joe Joyce: How will all the people who currently use the bus station fit into the new interchange? How are you going to provide adequate shelters in the Drapery and how will you deal with the current traffic problems in Sheep Street.
11:04
Ann Parker: If the bus station is demolished to make way for redevelopment of Grosvenor Centre do we have any guarantees that the redevelopment will go ahead? Could we be left with an inadequate new bus station and no change in the Grosvenor Centre?
11:06
David Mackintosh: The Fishmarket site is big enough. We did consider the law courts site but this is too far out from the town centre. The Fishmarket site is very well located for the town centre and not just the Grosvenor Centre. It also provides completely level access without stairs, escalators or lifts. There will be clearly defined services that depart from specific stand or stop locations so passengers will not be re-directed between locations. Once the new interchange is operational it will be clear as to where passengers need to catch their bus. There will also be improved shelters in the Drapery.
11:08
David Mackintosh: I meet regularly with Legal & General and they are actively working on the Grosvenor Centre development because of everything happening in the town centre now. Key blocks like the bus station being demolished help this and the Enterprise Zone also means there will be more people working and shopping in the town centre.
11:08
Steve: If it is true that the current station is beyond repair, why not replace it with a new building but retain the current location and layout. It needs to be comfortable and convenient for that number of people, not pushed to its limits on the day it opens. The current layout is much better in that regard.
11:09
David Mackintosh: Steve, the cost is much higher to repair the current station than to use the Fishmarket site. The new Bus Interchange will provide fully enclosed and under cover waiting areas. There will be 14 stands in the new bus interchange. The major bus companies currently operating from the Greyfriars – Stagecoach, First Bus and National Express – have been involved with the design of the new Bus Interchange and will still be able to operate
11:11
John Rundle: There is no need for more shops, we have enough mobile phone shops already and there doesn’t appear to be any demand for anything else. That is why we have so many empty shops. You can’t park anywhere near enough to carry shopping home.
11:12
Barry Andrews: I have been to a number of towns with extended shopping centres where the farthest ends are dead with few, if any, open units, making it an undesirable place to be day or night. Especially out in the open air with no security closing it at night. Isn’t that going to be the end result of extending the Grosvenor and all for the cost of moving our very practical bus station?
11:12
John Sheinman: It would seem that the present governing body is yet to convince the majority of voters and the people using our principal public transport portal that a viable or even equal alternative has yet been found. Does this forum have the authority to influence the decision and if so how can it be the democratic vehicle that so far has eluded the people of Northampton ?
11:15
R Clifford: Greyfriars is safe, dry and warm and simply needs refurbishment. Why knock it down and replace it with substandard alternative which will only discourage people from using the buses to visit the town centre? Do the councillors in Northampton ever use the buses?
11:17
David Mackintosh: I walk regularly around the town centre and am concerned by the number of empty shops too. But when you speak to retailers there are two concerns about shops in Northampton. They are worried about the size of shops available – they are generally too small for the bigger retailers – and about footfall. We are doing all we can to increase the number of people in the town centre through providing free car parking, putting on big events and marketing the town better with our partners. The Grosvenor Centre development will double the size of the centre and provide bigger shops for the retailers. So essentially we need to provide larger shops and encourage more people into the town centre. This will also create around 2,000 new jobs. The only guarantee is that we can be sure without the regeneration of our town that Legal & General will not go ahead, that jobs will not be created and we will all suffer from a town in decline
11:24
Guest: I’m struggling to understand why anyone would want to retain Greyfriars bus station - do Northamptonians have a particular fondness for buckets collecting rainwater, non-moving escalators, dingy interiors and the delightful eau de urine?
11:24
Alan Jones: When the council agreed to transfer the current bus station site to Legal and General why was provision not included for a replacement bus station in the development? Are the councillors deciding on planning policy or is the developer making the decisions?
11:25
Neil: I worked on the original designs of the town centre back in the early 70s – and we presented the whole picture – you are not – just showing bits of plans and not stepping back and showing what you think the town will look like taking everything into account - you should step back and do a proper job of telling everybody how your proposals fit together.
11:25
Tom: I don’t understand why people would be inclined to keep what is the disgrace of the town. No large re-developed towns have huge behemoths keeping buses dry, they have outside stations.
11:25
David Mackintosh: The cost to refurbish the building is around £30 million. The new bus interchange is around £6.5 million. The new facilities will be modern, clean and warm.
11:28
Peter Dunbar: How can it encourage the elderly to shop in town centre when we are expected to stand around in the cold and wet. We are more likely to see job losses in town centre as a result of this foolish scheme to move the bus station.
11:29
Sheron Watson: Why not have a referendum on the bus station? Let the people of the town decide what happens to the bus station.
11:31
David Mackintosh: The shelters on the Drapery will be an improved design and we are taking into consideration all of the feedback from the consultation
11:32
R Bliss: How can you say that the Fishmarket site is big enough when it is so obviously a fraction of the size of Greyfriars? Have you been inside the bus station in one of the many queues and seen the number of people and buses in there? How can a bus shelter on the Fishmarket site cope with all of that, particularly when on occasion buses do not run to time, where would they go? Why should we have to lose our integrated bus station to stand under shelters in all weathers?
11:33
Vervet: It seems that supporters of the existing bus station are simply ignoring the cost of refurbishment (£30m) compared to rebuild (£6.5m). Do they really want NBC to spend £23.5m more than they need to ??
11:33
David Mackintosh: The bus depot is simply a garage for storing buses overnight. It does not make sense to use a prime town centre location for this instead of developing our shopping centre to create 2,000 extra jobs for local people
11:37
David Mackintosh: The only guarantee we have, is that if we do nothing then NO shops will come to Northampton and we will have NO extra jobs for local people
11:38
Common sense: It’s essential for the regeneration of Northampton to allow expansion in that area of the town. It’s a coincidence that its a bus station and had been any other structure it too would need to be demolished. The time for talking in NBC is over. It’s time to see action from NBC
11:41
Ann Parker: It is debatable whether the future of shopping lies in the town centre shopping mall. Habits have changed, people do much more shopping online and in out of town stores than when centres like the Grosvenor were built. A bigger Grosvenor won’t necessarily bring the return that the investors want hence my doubts over whether L&G will actually go ahead.
11:42
David Mackintosh: The bus operators are telling us these plans work. I think it may be hard for drivers to imagine but on visiting the Fishmarket site, it is much bigger than you would imagine
11:45
John_Blaze: How will the town handle the traffic disruption?? The town was almost crippled by the roadworks when the new college was built, surely this will cause massive problem..
11:46
Jon Knaggs: Thank you for your time. It is fantastic to live in a democracy where people have a forum to air their views. I think this is a vibrant discussion about some big issues that the town has to deal with
11:47
David Mackintosh: The bus interchange will be neither cold nor wet
11:50
David Mackintosh: R Bliss - the current bus station is much bigger and does need to be because it is also used as a garage overnight. The new proposals would only be for buses to drop off and pick up with a depot elsewhere for overnight storage
11:54
David Mackintosh: Thank you for all of your comments. I am running out of time to answer all of these questions but The Chron will be forwarding any outstanding questions on to me and I will ensure people get a response by email. Thanks for all of your views.
12:12
Graham: It is quite obvious that there is a growing migration to internet shopping and all the major retail players will confirm this. This is a fact of life so how can demolishing a very functional bus station to make way for more retail be justified?
12:19
Taxigeorge: It seems the decision makers in this town are not the users of the present bus station (or the projected station), therefore, are they qualified to determine our destiny? I say not.
Email to a friend
Print this page- BREAKING NEWS: Tributes paid to Niamh Curry as brave five-year-old loses battle against cancer
- BREAKING NEWS: Pensioner dies after collision at Northampton shopping centre
- Man tied to tree and beaten on Northampton Racecourse
- BREAKING NEWS: Woman’s body found after ‘suicide’ in Northampton hotel room
- BREAKING NEWS: Seven-year-old boy dies following house fire in Northamptonshire
- Northampton binmen at ‘breaking point’
- Staff strike at Northampton school over academy plans forces closure
- Saints’ stadium plans get support as long as traffic issues solved
- Eastern European pupils helping school standards across Northampton
- Exclusive: PM David Cameron says Northamptonshire Police Commissioner role is “a big job for a big local figure”
Looking for...
Featured advertisers
Jobs
Search for a job
Motors
Search for a car
Property
Search for a house
Weather for Northampton
Saturday 26 May 2012
Today
Sunny
Temperature: 11 C to 23 C
Wind Speed: 18 mph
Wind direction: East
Tomorrow
Sunny
Temperature: 11 C to 24 C
Wind Speed: 15 mph
Wind direction: East
Comments
There are 52 comments to this article
Page 1 of 4
expo65
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 08:23 PMNO 50 , Nick 89, THANK GOODNESS PEOPLE LIKE YOU DO NOT USE BUSES NOR BUS STATION TO THAT FACT, and it shows how arrogant, selfish you are. what ever you call us , it is your perogative , and you might be out of nappies ,and have a silver spoon up bringing , but for a minute consider others , to whom buses and bus station gives a life line not just for some transport but also a way out from isolation , depression , a social focal point , and a great boost for our elderly , disabled , young residents who have no others means of coming to our town. What ever you say people have got a freedom to travel and go any where they like , and even if a new shops development takes place ( i hope not ) , people who are going to MK , will go , it is not just the shops that attract people , there is more to a town then shops. I go to MK , but not for shops.And I go by BUS , and am proud of it. Finally it is not a government who makes decisions like this -get your self out of your nappy, and get your facts right. Can we finally have a government that doesn't listen to these bigots and pushes things forward... for our town! Rant over
fxtown
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 07:07 PMbus stations all require an overhead empty void several times the height of a double decker bus to disperse fumes surely .A tunnel design is good for airflow, and you need a large entrance and exit.Isn't that pretty much a summary of greyfriars?If a new one was built it would still need a void and this still wouldn't be usable, so that pretty much rules out incorporation in any new development.This is actually great news for the town's other retailers because bus users are no longer a captive customer, servile to 'one' shopping centre.It's good news for bus users because there are virtually no upkeep costs, such as the current frequent escalator break downs, and therefore means ultimatly cheaper running costs and fares.
Nick89
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 02:37 PMI still find it hard to believe we live in a town full of complete imbeciles. Knocking down a building which was voted one of the worst buildings in the whole country can only be beneficial for the town. Whether the new bus station is moved to the Fishmarket or the redevelopment plans for the Grosvenor centre can include a bus station in it's current position, either would make the shabby town centre just that little bit more appealing to Northamptonians and others coming into town. The numpty who called the bus centre warm dry and comfortable or whatever he said clearly doesn't get a bus. Personally I haven't got on a bus in years and wouldn't partly cause our bus station is a dump and the buses are full of skummy chavs. This grosvenor centre expansion has been in the pipeline nearly as long as I have been out of nappies. When will we start doing something with our town instead of letting it rot. Everyone moans about it but does nothing. We lose customers and services daily to Milton keynes, which has no history and is full of wasters. Bring the town back to life... get northampton train station back as a main operating hub and give us the Northampton I knew growing up. Next you will be telling me the Saints don't need a new expansion and that we should move them to stadium MK. Can we finally have a government that doesn't listen to these bigots and pushes things forward... for our town! Rant over.
Bang 2 Rights
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 11:26 AMMonkeytosh hardly instils any confidence, does he?
HOS
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 06:56 AMThe more relevant question when talking about the relative costs is how much are L&G paying NBC for the bus station site? How about the cost of paying off the bus company for loss of lease? Those are part of the equation too. The cost of building the new glorified bus shelters and the cost of refurbing the current bus station is not a true comparrison to justify anything. Anyone can inflate a theoretical cost of refurbishing the existing bus station. We are not even being given a quarter of the story !................................................There is no democracy in this town despite the NBCNCC councillors bleating about no one turning up to meetings where people know their opinions are being ignored. In a nutshell: Northampton has failed to attract investment because of the management. That is something they will never acknowledge and the situation will never change. Investors aren't just investing in land or buildings, they are looking to see their investment will be managed well too. They know in Northamptoin they have no chance of that.
Pete Brown
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 at 01:17 AMJust look whats happened to the market when i moved here in 1998 its was a busy place now its like something from the village of the damned. We need a good market where people can browse for bargains in fact why can't we have stalls set up through the middle of the main pedestrian area.
HrolfK
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 05:10 PMAs Finker says, Leiceter looking for £5 million to build a new bus station (in addition to the one they already have) because shelters on the street are drafty and wet, and they want more people use the buses. Meanwhile, the plan in Northampton is to take a similar amount of money and move half the buses out to shelters in lay-bys along the Drapery. Nice.
KevSmith
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 10:58 AMi read that the bus station is used as a depot overnight and at the weekend - makes perfect sense this does and does to the operators, as it costs an obscene amount of diesel and time in moving the vehicles from one depot to another in the mornings, as most of the services START from greyfriars it makes sense to keep them there, with less cost to the operators for balancing moves from the berthing points to the bus station....as for the L&G building there are OFFICES that have never been used in the grosvenor, EMPTY EM & redevelop these in to shops or dare i say this AFFORDABLE HOUSING its been done in bletchley - stephenson house on their bus station was empty for years, Now its a vibrant community, probabaly the only reason to visit bletchley town centre.... as for this 30 million odd quid for rebuilding then do it, how much in the pocket are some of NBC with the Grosvenor, its obvious that the majority want the bus station to stay where it is - its only L&G who want it out the way, NBC you have been told what the taxpayers want - what the publc transport users want - i mean the passengers not the operators - now do what you have been told - keep the bus station where it is and spend the money on it that should have been spent on it keeping it clean and fresh that you should have done in the past..its a disgrace that it appears noone is being listened to except L&G - pathetic !!
Finker
Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 10:38 AMMeanwhile Leicester have bid for and hope to get £5m from the government for a new bus station instead of charging locals.
Joe Joyce
Monday, February 27, 2012 at 01:47 PMI see trees are already being felled in Sheep st, next to the Chinese restaurant. Nothing to do with this 'development' is it?
Davidjb
Monday, February 27, 2012 at 01:06 PMI don't think the web chat has actually gained anything here other than to waste everyone's time. I completely fail to see how the new Bus Station will cope given its far smaller size than the current Greyfriars. One would hope the Council can provide evidence from potential retail firms who would be willing to open stores in Northampton when the Grovesnor Centre expands. No point building a large extension (10 years too late really) that will just sit empty. Also can the Council provide a breakdown of costs of how they get to the £30m figure for the Greyfriars refurbishment cost? I haven't used Greyfriars myself for a number of years as I now drive but I always remember just how busy it could get at peak times.
John Dickie
Monday, February 27, 2012 at 09:23 AMOf course planning issues should be decided on planning grounds alone,but in this case there is too much political capital invested in getting the 'right' result. It requires real detachment from the furore that is swirling around,that's why an independent external inspector needs to look at all the issues without the political overlay. Nimbyism? I think not, this is about the future shape of the town centre in the town I care about. There have been far too many botched planning decisions that may have had other considerations attached. How did the mason's get permission years ago to build that brutally ugly building on St Georges Avenue?
fxtown
Monday, February 27, 2012 at 07:27 AM@aufona.Streep wins oscar for playing real politiician. Following the bus interchangeair hub analagy, and the brilliantly flamboyant, PR kung foo, and bad hair similarities of the two involved leaders almost to the point if twins seperated at birth, do you think we could get Danny devitto to reprise his role?
fxtown
Monday, February 27, 2012 at 12:24 AMBrilliant , pam really thanks, a guardian piece about londons proposed new air hub and the parallels are uncanny when you think of it.They have boris, while we have dave,they have to weigh a 3rd HR runway against a thames estuary site,they have cost benefit analysis; we have a 2000 jobs carrot,they have noise hating nimbys and nature loving nimbys, we've got bus users, car users, shoppers,retailers and big business.This one decision could well end up defining Northampton for the next fifty years.
Pam Varnsverry
Sunday, February 26, 2012 at 09:10 PMA little bedtime reading for those interested. "Don't dismiss nimbyism – it's the default mode of politics" http:tinyurl.com7ulr6pw "Nimbyism is the default mode of politics. It is where we scuttle when representative democracy has failed. Who will protect the local environment if government will no longer do so?" - "This seems to apply specially to planning. It is no good government telling people to shut up and submit, on pain of being dismissed as nimbys. They will not do so." - "These decisions reflect a crude clash of interests, of nimbys against commercial lobbyists, money against tranquillity, party advantage against scenic beauty. They are the most important decisions taken by government, because they are irrevocable. I no longer have faith in economics to inform them, but what is better? Decisions on the fate of the British environment seem close to random. In such circumstances, all the public can do is fight for its own patch of heaven, and let the devil take the hindmost."
Page 1 of 4
Your view
Please sign in to be able to comment on this story.